update:
Because this film does not portray the events completly, I ask that you listen to this podcast by bicycle mark before posting.
AudioCommunique #83(mp3)
31min+, 80kbps, 17Mb+
This post would have probably been understood better had the title read, “Is Amsterdam becoming a policed state?”
It is not a major event folks, but it is a warning sign. It’s not about being searched on the streets or about being Dutch or American, it’s about civil rights and how much of your freedom you are willing to give away for the feeling of security? I would have gladly been searched if there was some terrorist, or illegal action taking place in the area. But there was not. I was simply walking in an open space, and EVERYONE was being frisked. There was no discrimination by the police on that point. I agree that in other countries this is MUCH worse. I always felt safe in the Netherlands, and always respected the way the Police carried themselves. Up until now. That’s what this is about, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as the palbeach video that people are reffering to: It is very shocking to see what happend. The woman was speeding and was asked repeatedly to step out of her vehicle. She was breaking the law, and then resisting the officer’s to step out of her car. I don’t think walking out of a restuarant constitues breaking the law.
I know the footage that I filmed is not enough to give the whole picture. I wish I could have had it running the whole time, but I can’t film my life 24-7, and furthermore it’s not about America. Pavle says it best: “Does this put it in the same league as blacklisted torture camps? Of course not. Then again, the film is an off-the-cuff personal item and should not be seen as an intentional statement on the state of the world.”
No related posts.
skyhigher says:
A lot to do about nothing.
Chris,
I’ll be brief since I’ve already gone through the legalities in short on geenstijl (and I presume you cam through there).
First of all, end of september the appelate court in Amsterdam judged preventive searches illegal. If I’m not mistaken, friday’s was the first search after the judgement.
Under Dutch constitutuinal law, the mayor cannot abridge rights granted to us by the constitution while the government cannot abridge granted to us by treaties. Both of these happened in the case of the rules regarding preventive searches.
Regarding the links to this item, this was done by others. Should Gabe have removed the video when others started linking to it?
Skyhigh
I agree the states are searching nuts. What does it achieve? I’m not sure. I mean the whole taking off the shoes thing? Don’t forget the taking off of the belt. And taking of the fingerprints is absolutly scandolus. And I back you 100% on that.
I agree Holland is a wonderful country. That’s why I love living here, and have enjoyed living here for half my life. I do speak Dutch very well, but this is a very international blog, so my apologies for not posting in Dutch.
I did try cooperating with the officer. I just wanted a valid explanation as is our right.
Gabe mac
I agree with your interesting point of discussion; Where do we cross the line of invading privacy while securing public safety. It is a everlasting discussion which probably will never end.
But I think this video you made doesn’t help us getting any further. 1st of all: This officer was in fact very polite and was just doing his job, he did what he was told to do;
Secondly this IS legal in certain circumstances. I hope your lawyer friend agrees with me, or else I don’t see a very prosperous career for him in the future.
I think you will also understand that when an officer who is doing his job gets continously pointed at with a camera, he will get a little bit anoyed with an endless discussion about this.
So this is not the way to help this discussion in reaching its solution, its just a manipaluting form of populism.
Sorry for the bad english!
Thank you praesipower,
This film may or may not be helping us getting any further. It was not meant to be a political film but a simple registration of what little footage I had of the incident. I didn’t edit anything out of it.
I agree that the cops have a shitty job having to do this. I was trying to talk to the cops before and afterwards so that they could give the point of view and wasn’t trying to provoke anyone. I have learned a lot from this experience about how a little film can cause such a reaction. When I posted this little thing I had no idea that it would spread like this. I only have about 50 people look at this site who are mainly friends. I was rather ignorant of the far reach it could have. Please look at my other video postings which are always about how great life is here. It’s a one off instance, but it happened to me and this is my vlog.
I think your english is superb!
Hey Gabe,
I’m one of the many people who linked to your post, and then I started a thread about it on the yahoo vlog group. I am very happy you posted this video. I think the behavior of the Dutch cops was, unfortunately, typical of police all over the world.
What I find really interesting is how soon a huge ammount of people in the industrialized world will be able to capture video and put it on the web. How will this change the the way police and citizens interact?
I also think the variety of responses has been interesting, particularly the Dutch ones! The Netherands is a much more complicated place than most people experience as tourists.
You are very very naive. The police has no time to discuss the legality of their actions (I will come back to this later), they have to secure a ceratain area quickly even though it might seem safe to your eyes. Hell it might even be the safest place on earth for that moment. All they wanted to do is search you for weapons. There is no reason for them not to do so. I mean, almost everybody has weapons on them when they go out in Amsterdam. When you start backmouthing police-officers they will have more reason to suspect that you are in fact carrying weapons.
Furthermore you were a total ass towards the police. You were laughin g in his face and you kept the camera rolling. Not cooperating with a police officer calls for fast measures against your behaviour. I have been a security guard at many parties and events and I never had time to judge people individually or listen to bs from people. At an event where there was too little security and a too soft policy on both searching and simple bouncing of people it turned out into a huge fight in which people got seriously damaged and alot of pain was inflicted on a lot of people.
What you and your weirdo friend did was non-cooperate with authorities. They do not need to say why a certain area is an emergency (their english might not be great) area. They dont have to answer to you. They might have received a call about two rapists or robbers in the area with knives, who knows.
No what the legal issue concerns. I study law in Holland. All I can say to “whatshisname who is a dutch lawyer” is that it insinuates that he knows all the Dutch laws, which of course is utter nonsence. No person knows his exact laws on this matter and knows all the loopholes in this system and all the attached laws.
And what ever happened to what foreigners like to say “what one of us does does not represent all of us”. One group of officers does not represent all of the Dutch people.
Oh and one other quick note. For a guy who has so much critisism on Holland you sure liked the weed you smoked right after the incident, or is it right before? Or both? That whatshisnameguy looked awefully stoned to me.
Rasputin,
sorry to dissapoint you but I wasn’t stoned, neither was I drunk. If my reasoning was a bit on the slow side on the video, then it’s partially because I’d been very surprised by the whole event. And yes, my comment (with which the video starts) was filmed afterwards.
Now as far as the officers are concerned, while the audio might not be completely clear, I spoke with them in Dutch so there was no language barrier. Furthermore, you seem to imply that there may have been an actual reason for the search: that some crime may have taken place and that they were searching people in relation to the crime. The problem with that theory is that the way preventive searching works, it’s not possible for them to set up these controls in response to a specific incident. The police get their charge from the public prosecutor in advance. So unless they were looking for knife wielding rapists who were there the night before, your theory doesn’t work.
On another note, there are already enough possibilities in the law to enable the police to investigate a greater class of potentially suspicious persons in case of a greater localised threat.
As far as my knowledge of the laws is concerned, I wouldn’t want to have all the laws in my head. But on the issue of legality, my reaction was based on general knowledge that all people who’ve studied law in the Netherlands will have. Our rights as individuals (and they differ depending on whether we’re citizens or just humans) are part of Dutch constitutional law. (Staatsrecht, and if you’re studying it at the UvA you’ll probably study it from a handbook written by an ancestor of our current justice minister).
I was refering to one of the main human rights conventions that the Netherlands have signed up to, the Council of Europe’s Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. This treaty contains the following article:
Article 8 . Right to respect for private and family life
1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
The thing is that I wasn’t appealing to a loophole in the law. If any part of the story concerns a loophole then it’s the preventive search procedure which is not formally regulated but consists of cross-references in two acts which enable a mayor and a public prosecutor (neither of whom are democratically controlled) to decide which parts of town are ‘risk-areas’. If you read up on the issue (look at the link to the Amsterdam city site in one of the posts above) you’ll see that a fair chunk of the city center inside the Stadhouderskade has been called a risk area.
We’re not just talking of the Leidseplein, Rembrandtsplein and maybe the Reguliersdwarsstraat here. We’re also talking about the Spuistraat, the 9 straatjes etc., all areas which were always generally safe and pleasant. So, no I don’t buy your argument that there was (or even could have been) a specific cause. Moreover, the policeman could have very easily said that the search was related to an ongoing investigation in which case we would have complied very quickly. For me, this is the whole story: authority is not a justifier in its own right. If I go to a nightclub, I accept that the people at the door are there to guarantee the security of the people inside. By entering I accept their rules or I can refuse to be searched and not go in. (You might have noticed that the better clubs in town don’t pat you down any more sine they are more careful when deciding whom they want to let in). When I’m in a public place I have a right to move around freely without interference. If someone wants to limit this right I feel I have a right to an explanation.
Now as far as ‘cooperating with the authorities’ is concerned, since you say you’ve worked as a security guard you know that the best way to get someone’s respect is to treat them with respect. Friendliness breeds friendliness. Aggressiveness breeds aggressiveness. That’s what surprised me in this story. You may find Gabe’s smile irritating, that’s your right. But on the other hand, as it turned out, the police were finishing off their search, there was more than enough of them to beat the living daylights out of us if we really misbehaved, and I don’t thik that we showed them any disrespect. The fact that the policeman insists on his authority and feels the need to put Gabe in an armlock doesn’t bode well in my eyes. What would have happened if Gabe or I had really been drunk or pissed off. Imagine if Gabe’s girlfriend had just dumped him the day before. The funny thing is that a lot of the posters here are saying that we need to b more considerate of the police. All of a sudden, the police have become the subject entitled to a liberal,touchy-feely, considerate approach. On the one hand, I agree that you need to accept that policing is a tough job. On the other hand, they’re trained professionals. They know very well that when they act aggressively they can provoke an aggressive reaction. Had Gabe or I had an equally short temper, the people who were saying it’s a shame the video didn’t show any police violence would have had their share, and that for absolutely no reason. Well, no reason than that some people feel that Gabe has a silly smile on his face or that I am ugly with my rimmed glasses. Sorry, I don’t and won’t buy that argument. In this sense I may be naïve: I believe in a set of principles and if someone tries to force me in a situation where my principles and beliefs are brought under fire, I will say something about it.
On another note, everyone seems to be taking this story as a general complaint against the Netherlands. That’s the funny bit for me: if the complaint is about anything it’s about the Netherlands (unnecessarily) loosing some of its characteristics which have made it a great place in the past four hundred years. And sorry to say, but the availability of dope means nothing to me, except insofar as it shows a tolerant and pragmatic approach to the world.
praesipower
Thanks for the good wishes for my career, but I’ve learned that lawyers (or as in my case councillors) do tend to prosper if they understand all the possible facets of a story. Just to keep it brief: preventive searches have always been a hot topic. Under Dutch law they are permissible under certain circumstances and as I’ve said before, the courts recently found that the way they were being conducted in Amsterdam was not in accordance with Dutch law. On a more general plain, I feel that preventive searches will never be necessary and in accordance with the law (as intended by the human rights conventions). To be clear: of course the police have a right to search people. But this right is related to suspicion. In cases when you are not a suspect or even suspicious, you have the right to be left alone.
sad…story…been living here 12 years and listened to the podcast…i think that holland is confused. The laws, the state…in transition….this is obviously some weird panic reaction…searching the whole of the leidseplein with no clear mandate, scaring people. Guys you stayed cool in difficult circumstances. As another expat would like to buy you guys a beer some time and chew some cud:)
as an american who has lived here longer than both of ages combined i have to say that i find it very sad that you find the dutch way of life strange. it is the aftermath of american negligence in world wide politics and thinking that it owns the world. if you live in holland, treat your host country with its laws and richts with respect, or just leave. do not come here and judge us by some little incident when all you need to do is look at your own country and see how messed up it is. prison tortures, prison rapings, street rapings, gun selling, highschool killings, killings of innocent people overseas, shall i go on? no, do not dare criticize the dutch people when your own land is majorly at fault! shame on you, shame on you!
Thank you Matthew for your comment. I must say I am not ignorant to what is going on in the United States. I agree it is really fucked up what the states are doing all over the world. I remember when I could be proud of being American and I find myself walking more and more in shame because of it. But please do not beg the question or defer the issue. I am not criticizing the Dutch as a whole. I am criticizing the actions taken by a select few, which in my mind is the sign of going the way of the U.S. and it’s both foreign and domestic policies. Do you think I want that in Holland too? No. Of course not. What I don’t understand is the emmense backlash for trying to stand up for the civil rights in the Country I live in fo not only myself but for my friends and other citizens. If you all want to be ashamed of me, shame on yourselves for the backlash of me trying to do something right. All I see here is a bunch of comments telling me what I should do. Fucking slandering that I did something or I didn’t do enough. What the fuck do you people want. Shall I get killed for something I believe is not right. Is that what you’re fucking wanting? Instead why don’t you guys go do something to go make the worrld a better place, or stand up for what you believe in?
If you beleive in the striping away of your personal rights, and trading them in for some faint idea of security fine. Again, as I said before I’m not against the police. I’m not against the Dutch. I feel like I’m a broken record. It was a small incident that is indeed the symptom of greater problems. It looks like what we have here is failure to communicate. Fine, I give up. Go about your merry surfing, and go crusade someone else who will actually care any more.
eh gabe… not an emergency area?
ik zag toch echt een heel verdachte taxi voorbij komen hoor!
hihi
wat een onzin zeg!!
Fijn dat Pavle erbij was, die weet tenminste wat onze rechten zijn, ik was waarschijnlijk meteen in de houding gaan staan, dit omdat ik niet goed weet wat ik voor rechten heb.
goed zo!
ben blij dat je het op internet gezet hebt! dat word ik weer wat wijzer.
It is a difficult position you have been forced into during and after the video.
Why it has escalated from a routine search we will never know. It should have stayed as a civil conversation between two human beings but it didn’t.
I guess all you can do is count your blessings it wasn’t worse and hope it won’t happen again. Take care and keep blogging.
Hoi,
geweldig hoe jullie proberen je gelijk te krijgen aan de hand van de Wet.
Laten we de Wet houden bij diegene die er echt verstand van heeft en precies kan uitleggen wat de bedoelingen zijn van de Wet: namelijk degene die hem gemaakt heeft en degene die mag oordelen.
Met stukjes copy en paste komen jullie er echt niet hoor!
En voor de rest, over een politieagent met zijn gezicht in beeld brengen heb ik mijn bedenkingen. Of het nou zo bedoeld is of niet, dit is geen conflict meer met de politie, maar dit komt over als iemand persoonlijk aanvallen. Hij kan zich niet verdedigen.
Als je echt zo goed denkt te weten wat legaal en illegaal is, doe het dan zó dat beide partijen zich kunnen verdedigen.
Just gave you a link on Vlog Soup: Episode 9, my free video tour of the video blogosphere!ornr
you have been ReVlogged:
http://tinyurl.com/dooam
hi all, i’m from the UK, and will be visiting the Dam with freinds in Nov 06, i have read the majority of your comments and all have a point. unfortunatley the world in which we live in requires this type of random search to go on if anything to deter others from commiting crime, carrying weapons etc, i dont believe they would arrest if drugs were found. i can understand that if you walk out of any premises and youre stopped and searched it can be alarming, but like others have said if you had a ‘BEEF’ against the police you should of made a complaint. i would of probably ended up in a cell , but thats me. it hasnt put me off visiting amsterdam and other countrys with a stricter policing policy. generally i find the police more helpfull than a pain.
The same thing happened to me & a friend last week when we were walking on a main shopping street in Amsterdam in the daytime. The Police were frisking anyone, even elderly people. The excuse was it was a high risk area and they were searching for weapons.
They asked if they could do it but we could hardly say no. The woman who frisked me was very rough.
I’m surprised that this post dates from 2005 because the last time we visited was 2004 and we didn’t see anything like this. They are now doing full scans at the airport, the type that sees you naked. It’s not a fun place anymore.